From: Jonathan
Date: 22 July 2006 5:31 PM
Hi everyone,
I've been thinking about this Monday's meeting and the discussion topic. Since we are the Hard Questions Group, I suppose we could turn the topic into "What do we mean by 'The Christian experience'?".
I thought it might help get us started if this rather general question got 'teased out' a bit. So, here are a few "sub-questions" to think about (some of which are me playing the devil's advocate):
- It's often said that we shouldn't rely on our emotions to determine our spiritual state, but is that really possible?
- People who have taken certain drugs have reported effects indistinguishable from mystical, spiritual experiences. So, is Christianity (or religion in general) just a "natural high"?
- Christians often talk about "joy" and "peace" in the Lord; what are they but emotions (which can be changed by slightly altering the mix of chemicals in our brain)?
Bring your thoughts on these, and perhaps some of your own sub-questions, to the group on Monday.
See you then.
Cheers,
Jonathan
From: Arthur
Date: 22 July 2006 8:30 PM
Jonathan,
I suppose what you are wrestling with is the fine line between the nature of general religious experience and what is genuinely Christian experience of the true God who made heaven and earth, whose Son is the Lord Jesus Christ.
Best example of this is that speaking in tongues is an experience not limited to Christians!
Regards
Arthur
From: Jonathan
Date: 22 July 2006 11:36 PM
Hi Arthur,
That's partly it. But I'm also thinking of experiences or emotional states that don't even claim to be based on anything more than chemicals and brain impulses, but which can be indistinguishable from the "real thing".
And, yes, speaking in tongues is usually associated with heightened emotion, but that doesn't mean it has to be (i.e. by definition). Also, heightened emotional states don't necessarily involve anything as "spectacular" as tongues.
But you're right: the real issue is - what does it mean to say that we have an experience of the one true God, who made heaven and earth and whose Son is the Lord Jesus Christ?
Regards,
Jonathan
From: Jonathan
Date: 25 July 2006 7:21 PM
Dear hard questioners,
It was a shame that Wanda, Arthur and Bruce were unable to attend last night but it was a fruitful discussion nevertheless. Here are some of my recollections of the evening, plus some additional thoughts.
(Lorna, Rod & Nina: if you believe I've misrepresented you in any way, or missed out something important, please reply to the group.)
First of all, I read out the emails of the past few days (two from me and one from Arthur), plus one from a good friend of ours, George (to whom Wanda mentioned a few days ago that we were going to be discussing this topic). George is not a Christian but regards himself as "spiritual". His beliefs have a lot in common with a number of eastern religions.
He writes:
"In order to respond appropriately to life-situations (this is what I understand by being in a state of grace) the right blend of intellect and emotion is necessary. (This I believe is the proper meaning of intuition.)
"Therefore, while it is true that we shouldn't rely on emotion alone, emotion is a necessary component of our consciousness. Some drugs force the release of certain chemicals, which are released naturally in joy and peace states; the difference is that while drugs give us 'unearned' blissful states, and therefore drug experiences are often followed by feelings of depression and emptiness, spiritual 'highs' (i.e. divine grace) are a natural result of love, devotion and surrender, and are therefore free of negative reaction.
"Belief in God is an advantage as this belief provides a focus for these sentiments, but it can also be a hindrance if our idea of God is sectarian and divisive. This is why there many people who profess atheism when they are in fact great devotees of love, truth etc. (divine attributes) while conversely some so-called religious people have little real spiritual understanding."
(George's reference to faith possibly being a hindrance "if our idea of God is sectarian and divisive" is interesting in the light of our discussion at the last meeting, about the appealing but misguided view that all religions are essentially the same.)
Not surprisingly, what arose from our discussion were not definitive answers but more questions, plus some suggestions and, hopefully, insights:
Do we seek joy/bliss/transcendence (as with many eastern religions) or do we seek Truth (i.e. God) and let joy etc follow - to a greater or lesser extent - as a result? (Rod)
Nina disputed that joy is really an emotion; she believes it is more an orientation. However, Lorna disagreed. Perhaps it is a bit of both, or maybe one word is inadequate.
Do we make decisions based on reason or emotion? Lorna said that she will creates lists of pros and cons but in the end will make a decision based on gut instinct. Rod said that gut instinct can often be our moral compass. Although I didn't say it in the meeting, I've been thinking about how reason and emotion work within me. My best description is an image of an ever-widening spiral:
As the spiral widens, my sense of 'certainty' increases.
Accessing feelings can be very difficult., perhaps because we've learnt over many years to suppress them. Often feelings are best accessed indirectly, through symbols (or 'resonant sensations'). This is why religious paraphernalia (such as candles, incense, music etc.) can sometimes be helpful.
We can find peace with God only when we are 'broken'. Again, although I didn't say it in the meeting, I've been thinking about this some more. I imagine myself going for a job interview at God Inc.:
God: So, what strengths can you bring to the company?
Me: Absolutely none, I'm afraid.
God: That's what I hoped you'd say.
Regarding a date for the next meeting, I reckon the sooner the better (especially since three of us missed out). Mondays and Tuesdays are probably best for us, but other days could be possible, too.
Regards,
Jonathan
From: Rod
Date: 27 July 2006 8:12 PM
Dear all,
May I echo Jonathan's recommendation that we aim to regroup ASAP, especially bearing in mind how many missed out the other day. I hope Wanda you are feeling better, and that parish issues have settled for Arthur (and his wise counsel Bruce).
I was appreciative of Jonathan instigating an interesting discussion on Monday. I have certainly never been in a home group meeting before where this topic has been discussed.
Jonathan states: Rod said that gut instinct can often be our moral compass.
That is not quite what I said (or at least what I meant!), rather I reflected that my decisions are often ultimately based on feelings, rather than what is entirely rational. This led to some discussion about the Myers-Briggs personality analysis, and the fact that as individuals, we process information and make decisions based on a range of personal differences (eg I am an INFJ, so my natural tendancy is to Feel rather than Think). The benefit of analyses such as the Myers-Briggs test is that by understanding better what my natural tendancies are, I can better recognise when those natural tendancies are in fact limiting my responses. For me, then, having an "F" tendancy, it is worth my while taking time to Think a bit before concluding my response to an important decision. (In my legal work, I find most clients also tend to rely heavily on their feelings, and I am often able to assist them to look at their circumstances with some rationality by firstly tapping into their feelings).
In relation to faith and feelings, for me being an "F" means that feelings have always been integral to my faith. Some of the highest points in my spiritual journey have been occasioned by a deep sense of joy and peace. BTW, those concepts, to me, encompass all of my being, so that when I am at peace, I am at peace in both my feelings and thoughts. On the other hand, I need to be careful that I do not rely too much on my feelings as a measure of the health of my faith journey.
I think (and feel) that Jonathan's picture is great, because it perhaps captures the importance of us drawing upon BOTH reason and emotion, and not discarding either (both of which, incidently, are given to us by God as a guide).
Nina and I have various things on in the coming weeks...... I suggest perhaps Arthur nominates a few dates, and we work from there??? I know for sure than 7/8, 8/8 and 11/8 are out for me.
Regards,
Rod
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